JK Oldenburg: Hello, everybody, and welcome back to The Council Fire. My name is JK Oldenburg, and today, I'm joined by Gavin Cho. Gavin, welcome to the podcast.
Gavin Cho: Thanks, JK. Happy to be here.
JK: So, Gavin, how are you doing today?
Gavin: I am doing okay. I'm really excited for the opportunity to talk to you and the rest of the audience a little bit about my adventure through Scouting in the Order of the Arrow. So thanks for having me.
JK: Awesome. It's so lovely to see you today. So, Gavin, can you tell us about how you got your start in scouting?
Gavin: Yeah, absolutely. So, my start in scouting more generally is a little bit more unconventional. I'd say. Basically, in first grade, we had some recruiters come and visit our classroom, and I actually joined Scouting based on a misunderstanding. They described all sorts of fun things that I would have the opportunity to do as a Cub Scout: the camping, going to different meetings and learning different outdoor skills, and being able to roast s'mores on the fire while, you know, spending time outdoors. Those are all things that were, like, pretty interesting to me but weren't exactly anything to write home about. I wasn't going to go home and, you know, talk to my parents about joining Scouting based off of those things.
But they did mention one thing that really captured my attention, and that was the opportunity to race my own cars. They described this process of being able to build your car and being able to race it around a track was how I understood it. So I envisioned my seven-year-old self climbing into like a go-kart, basically, and having the opportunity to, like, race them around a track when, in reality, they were describing what we all commonly know as Pinewood Derby cars, which aren't exactly the same as what I was envisioning. But I'm really glad that I decided to talk to my parents, even if it was based on a misunderstanding, because the Scouting program has given me so much over the years, and I'm incredibly grateful for everything that it's brought me.
JK: That's amazing. I know I had a similar journey of them coming to my school as well and me getting interested for telling them about that. And they talked to my parents about it, of course. So, Gavin, what year did you get inducted and tell us a little bit about what got you interested in the Order of the Arrow.
Gavin: I got inducted in 2015. It was May 2015. My first exposure to the Order of the Arrow was when I was working at one of my council's residence camps, and one of our star camp staff members was wearing this bright white sash, and he was doing kind of an unglamorous job at summer camp. He was in charge of restocking the bathrooms and making sure that there was toilet paper, paper towels, soap in the dispensers, that things were clean, emptying trash cans, things like that, that, you know, on the surface seem to be these pretty menial tasks. But he was always one of the most cheerful people at camp, despite doing a job that didn't really allow for a lot of interaction between himself and other staff members, other campers, things like that. But his attitude was really what sort of drew me to him.
And finally, I had the courage to ask him what the white sash represented, and he told me about the Order of the Arrow. He told me about some of the requirements for joining, which have changed over the years. But at the time, you know, I was really interested in joining the Order of the Arrow based on what he was explaining to me. And so, I decided to make it a goal of mine to join the Order of the Arrow. And from a young age, I think that I was maybe 13 or so when I first heard about the Order of the Arrow. And from that point forward, I made it my goal to join and as soon as I met the requirements, I was elected by my unit to attend an induction weekend. I attended it with some of my best friends. It was an incredibly meaningful experience for me, and here I am.
JK: That's so amazing. And it's amazing that, of course, you saw somebody with the white sash at camp. I heard you're a huge camp staffer at Camp Verdugo Oaks.
Gavin: It's true. It's true. One of the best camps in the country, in my opinion.
JK: So the Order there is such an amazing place. And one of the things that I believe that makes it so special is some of the long-lasting friendships that form from it. So, I think some of our listeners are probably asking by now how the two of us became friends and got to know each other. Gavin, do you remember what event that we met at?
Gavin: I don't remember the specific event. I feel like you and I have had a lot of passing interactions, and then I believe that it was around like probably 20... my goodness, it's been so many years. Probably like it had to be like the 2018-19 ish period, I want to say was when we actually started interacting more. Do you remember the first event? I don't remember. There's so many.
JK: It was the high performing lodge summit we had over in L.A. I met you because of our mutual friend, Adrian.
Gavin: That's right. That was in 2018. I got the year, right? Yeah. Or maybe it was 2019, I don't remember. But yeah, that was an incredible event. Obviously a very unique atmosphere to have interacted at for the first time meaningfully. And I think that we… We did a lot of really important work that weekend trying to figure out how to solve issues that were facing the organization. But I think that as with most of the events, the most fulfilling part of that was the opportunity just to sit down and chat with some of your newfound friends in the off time. So, yeah, no surprise to me that that's that that was our first interaction.
JK: Yeah, that was amazing. As well as I've seen you, I know you're a friend of Adrian, who was an older peer of mine, as well as just this amazing staff full of section chiefs and national officers and future national officers as well. In that room.
Gavin: Yeah, Yeah, it's true. That was truly a meeting of the minds. It felt like there were a lot of people there who went on to do some really fantastic things across the organization at all sorts of different levels. Future chapter leaders, lodge leaders, section leaders. And you're right, there were a few future national officers that were in attendance at that event as well.
JK: All right. And then I think our next time meeting was at the conclave in 2019. Our very cold conclave we had.
Gavin: Yes, Yes, I recall that. Yeah,
JK: Yeah, I remember what stands out to me the most is, by far, was messing with Adrian right before the election. Of course, he's all nervous.
Gavin: Yes, those, you know, those opportunities just to hang out and poke some fun at some of your friends are some of the most fun experiences that you have in the organization. And at that point, it had been probably over a year or right around a year since we all had met for the first time. And so being able to interact at a few, you know, various events between them, of course, really allowed for some really fun memories to be out there.
JK: Yeah. And I think, by far, my favorite is hanging out at NOAC [National Order of the Arrow Conference] with you, Andrew and, of course, Rio.
Gavin: Yeah. Yeah. NOACs are always incredible experiences, but there's, you know, there is definitely a certain type of energy when you're able to get your friends together from all across the country into one place and be surrounded by people who are enjoying that same luxury and just feeling the power of the organization is it's such a unique energy. And honestly, like the way that I see it is, you can, I think that the reason why I find those types of events so meaningful is because not only are there opportunities to learn more about how to solve the issues the organization is facing, we all know that there are a lot of things that we can do to mobilize ourselves in our chapter's lodges sections in order to improve the organization.
But what it comes down to is having fun, and especially at the National Order of the Arrow Conference, I've just been able to set aside the hard work and just have fun with my friends. And so it's always a really good time to hang out during the shows, after the shows and, you know, everything in between and just being able to have fun.
JK: Of course, yeah. And I am so excited that we have it so much closer to us this year. Finally, at the University of Colorado, so I'm hoping a lot more people come out this year and have a great time.
Gavin: Absolutely. Especially the people on the West Coast. We gotta represent. We're here in the Gateway Region, and there are a lot of times when events are far from us, but this time, it's like in our backyard. So now we have easy access. So yeah, hopefully, we get a lot of folks out there.
JK: Alright, so Gavin, what's some advice that you would give to our listeners?
Gavin: I guess I think that a lot of the advice that I would give to the listeners can be applied to both the Scouting sphere and the non-Scouting spheres of life. And I think that especially for the folks who are listening to this podcast are going to be the type of people who are really active in the organization, who care a lot about the Order of the Arrow, who care a lot about Scouting. And I think it's also important to take a step outside of the organization every now and then to realize that the skills that you're learning through your participation at events, through stepping up and taking that leadership role, all of that is designed to help cultivate these people who are going to go on after their time in Scouting, to do great things in the world, to make the world a better place.
I know for me personally, I got sort of caught in the trap of devoting everything that I had to the organization. You know, I had the opportunity to serve as the Western Region chief in 2020, one of the most fulfilling experiences in my life. And yet, after my term had ended, I was left with this profound feeling of almost emptiness. I didn't really know what to do with myself because I devoted so much of myself, years of my life, to this organization. And I think that I recognized two main things from that, from experiencing that transition from being a national officer to suddenly not having a defined role is that, first and foremost, experiences in the organization are incredible, that the opportunities to grow are unmatched, but the most valuable thing I take away from Scouting and the Order of the Arrow are the relationships or the people that I've met along the way, and I think that understanding that the people that you meet in the organization are folks that are going to be friends for the rest of your life is really important. Something that I wish that I had known while I was still active as a youth in the organization is to be able to take a step back and to say, “I'm at this event. I'm having a great time. This is also like a finite thing. Like I'm not always going to be a youth in the organization.” And so being able to experience those things with the people who I care about and the people who I love ultimately is, is one of the best things about the organization.
And the second thing that I took away from my time in the Order of the Arrow, in particular, has been finding that balance. I mentioned a little bit earlier about how I felt this sense of emptiness exiting my term. And I think that the biggest thing that I would, you know, tell the listeners is, and it might seem a little counterintuitive to what I just mentioned, but as much as the time that you're experiencing right now in the Order of the Arrow are some of the best moments of your life, also try to find the things that you're going to take away from the organization. At the same time, find the people who are not just going to be present for your time in Scouting. Find the people who you're meeting through Scouting who are going to be with you for the rest of your life. And I know, JK, you and I have had the pleasure of meeting so many people across the Order of the Arrow who fit that category. Folks who, like I, you know, we hang out outside of the context of Scouting. And I think that those are the relationships that should be prioritized. So I think that those are the two biggest pieces of advice that I would give.
JK: That's so amazing. Thank you so much, Gavin. That's truly beautiful. I know I've had those same questions in my life, as well, about what I am with this organization or what is it like to do this after I become 21? I know that's a huge benchmark that a lot of us are facing and looking at.
So, on a much more fun note, if you can invite three people dead or alive to a dinner, who would they be?
Gavin: That is an absolutely fantastic question. This is like a dream come true, almost to have an opportunity to get like three people together. I think that, man, my mind goes all over the place. So I think that for me, some of the people who have been on the top of my mind recently, I think I have to bring Taylor Swift to dinner. Of course, one of the most successful artists of the moment. And I think that hearing from her about sort of what it was like growing up in a spotlight and how she thinks that might have impacted her development as a human would be really interesting to hear. And, of course, like with all celebrities, as they put forward an image of themself that they want the public to consume. So, I would be very interested to hear from her who she thinks she really is underneath the Taylor Swift banner and who Taylor Swift is as a person. And of course, like pick her mind about the wild success that she's had, especially recently. She sort of just caught fire and is just a phenomenon across the world.
I think that, man, it's so tough because there's so many potential people that would be great to hear from, dead or alive. I'm thinking, I've been reading a lot of poetry recently, actually, which is something that I'm kind of just getting into, but I would love to talk to Walt Whitman. I've been reading a lot of his poetry recently. He's someone that I think would be fascinating to hear from, hear his creative process and, like, if he was able to feel the moments of inspiration strike when he was writing his poems, or if it was just something that he kind of just sort of became a muscle memory. So that would be really interesting to hear from one more person.
Okay, I have a cop-out answer, and then I have another more real answer. So my cop-out answer would be saying like, I'll bring my brother. That way, he could, like, experience that stuff with me and, like, talk to these people as well. But I think that if I were to give another answer of someone who's not a family member, I'm going to go, I had an answer, but I'm changing. I'm going to say Jeff Probst, host of Survivor. He is in his own way, kind of like he is kind of like a celebrity, but he has this one role, this one position for so long that has seen so much success that is really like forged an entire industry being reality television. And so I'd be very interested to hear from him about what it was like getting on the ground floor of that movement, being one of the first reality television shows and having one of the most successful long-running shows. And I want to give him my pitch for why I should go on Survivor because I would love nothing more than to be on the show. So getting dinner with him, I think would be a great opportunity for him to for me to be able to pick his mind about what they're looking for and to convince him that they should let me on.
JK: I could not wait for Gavin Cho on Survivor in 2024-2025. So, what are your favorite current songs or obsessions going on right now?
Gavin: So I have been listening to a lot of Taylor Swift, a lot of Taylor Swift. I have been listening to her Folklore album, Evermore, and Midnight. Those are the three that have been kind of in my rotation recently. I've been listening to her song “Gold Rush” a lot recently, actually, and “August,” just some of my favorites. I don't know why. Of course, Olivia Rodrigo's new album is fantastic, so I've been listening to that a lot. Other obsessions. By the time this is uploaded, Season 45 of Survivor will have started, so chances are, in the midst of an incredible obsession with Season 45 of Survivor. I don't know. I've been trying to, I've been trying to also just lean more into just giving, yeah, that's it. I don't know.
JK: Yeah, that's amazing. I was like, I was surprised. GUTS was not first on that list. Knowing you.
Gavin: It's true. It's true. I've had a shift in priorities as of late.
JK: Yeah, I've been loving GUTS so far, as well as, there's a new album for LaVey called Bewitched, which I actually have right here next to me.
Gavin: Oh my gosh. I'll have to give that a listen. I know I've been so singularly focused on Taylor Swift and Olivia Rodrigo I haven't had the opportunity to, like, listen to new music per se.
JK: No, that's fair. Yeah. LaVey has a beautiful jazz album that came out, as well as V from the BTS had an amazing EP come out as well.
Gavin: That sounds great.
JK: And then we can always look forward to... Yeah, and we can look forward to over the coming weeks of, let's see, Taylor's version of 1984. No.
Gavin: 89, 1989. Yes.
JK: My bad.
Gavin: No, you're good.
JK: Yeah, that'll be coming out very soon. And then for mine as well as I'm actually going this week to go pick it up, is there's a new Percy Jackson book that came out.
Gavin: I do not know that. That's like one of my childhood favorites, actually. So that's very exciting to hear. I need to get back into that because I know there's a lot of spinoff books that have come off from the original series. And I listened, or I read some of them, but I kind of fell off probably around like high school, and I kind of tapered off reading those. But I really want to get back into them because there's some they're incredible. They're incredible books. They really transport you to a completely different world, completely different universe, which is cool.
JK: Yeah, there's some amazing ones, especially ones that cover most recently East Asian religions as well.
Gavin: Oh really?
JK: So that's really exciting to see and read.
Gavin: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I think the last one that I read was about that was more centered around Egyptian, like what was more centered around Egyptian culture and Ancient Egyptian beliefs and that sort of stuff, which was really cool. So yeah, I'll have to check out some East Asian stuff. That'd be sweet.
JK: Yeah, let me know. I have all of them with me. You can always borrow them.
Gavin: Yes. I might take you up on that.
JK: Yeah, I'm really excited because December comes out the new Percy Jackson TV show, which will be awesome.
Gavin: So we finally get some redemption for the movies, which, you know, as much as like they're not amazing, but I thought the first one was actually okay like I, I remember my brother and I would watch it a lot on DVD and so, like, you know, it was, you know, not amazing. But I still think that it did a good enough job of immersing you in that universe.
JK: Definitely the first one is what got me into the series in general. So I'm very thankful. But the second one is a pretty, pretty tough watch.
Gavin: It is. Yes. Hopefully, the TV series does the books a little bit more justice.
JK: And then Gavin, has there been anything that has been on your mind that you would love to share with our listeners?
Gavin: I mean, I've been honestly really focused on my schooling. I'm in my last year of a master's program, and so that's super exciting. And aside from that, just been trying to spend a lot of time with friends and family and been really grateful for that time that I've had the opportunity to, to share with them. So just a prevailing sense of gratitude, I guess.
JK: That's awesome. It's really amazing hearing what you're doing that, and I wish you the best. And for listeners, I want to make sure you guys have an amazing time. So for our listeners, I want to make sure you guys check in on your health, make sure to talk to your friends. It's always great. We get really busy here, but it's important to focus on your mental health. So we'll see you guys next time, around The Council Fire. Have a great time! Bye!